How To Start a Revolution with Chip Southworth

Cold open: Clinton & Art teaser, intro, Chip and Rikki's Skateboard House and Chip's early years in the Beauclerc and Mandarin neighborhoods of Jacksonville.

4:45 - Keith Haring's Ghost (KHG) and the 2015 "art on unoccupied structures" bill to legalize and encourage streetscape public art. In 2014, public art was essentially illegal. Chip worked with the Cultural Council to draft a bill legalizing public art. Chip talks about the KHG street art campaign from here to Miami during the Nomo show during Art Basel. This body of work got him arrested and when he got out of jail, he was invited to deliver a TEDx talk, which prompted a public conversation about the value of street art. Chip helped the city and the Cultural Council draft the new bill and lobbied to get it through city government with the support of then Cultural Council chair Tony Allegretti and Director of Art in Public Places, Christie Holechek.

17:00 - Chip the Edge Lord. His over-the-top arrest by the local police state was absurd and traumatic, but in the end the law was changed, which provided new opportunities for artists and the city, but had the opposite impact on Chip's professional career for chip because of the arrest.

26:18 - Chips illegal art made art like it legal. After the whole hullabaloo, the new bill was adopted unanimously. Chip's bill changed 18 laws and expanded the public art economy. 

29:50 - WTF is "dazzle camo"? When Chip worked on Clinton’s security detail in DC, he discovered "dazzle campo patterns" used by Western Navies. During WWi and II, modern artists were involved in creating visual patterns on vessels that confused the enemy's ability to track, predict and target ships. During this period of his career after the arrest and with changing political landscapes, he experienced pushback against his political art, which addressed Black lives and LGBTQ+ communities. This work got him kicked out of shows in 2024, especially during Desantis-driven cuts and culture war headwinds. He went deep into research and delved into work by Jasper Johns, Robert Rauschenberg and Hans Klein to decide how to create work from the dazzle camouflage concept. 

40:00 - The Hank Willis Thomas chapter. Going to Savannah to see artist Marcus Kenney when Aaron Garvey from SCAD introduces Chip to Hank Willis Thomas. Subsequently, Thomas invites Chip to be part of the Into Action! pop-up civic art festival in Los Angeles and the For Freedoms artist collective, non-profit political and civic arts organization founded by Hank Willis Thomas and Eric Gottesman that produces large-scale, culturally driven art events and civic engagement activations that encourage public dialogue about major socio-political issues with a high-profile social justice arts festival and exhibition in Los Angeles featuring prominent activist-artists, including Chip, Shepard Fairey Michelle Wu, Awol Erizku, Barbara Kruger, Carrie Mae Weems and many others.

45:25 - Instruments of war. Pablo Picasso said that painting is not made to decorate apartments, "It is an instrument of war for attack and defense against the enemy.” Chip’s fight cost him, benefited the city, and created an economy for public art, but were local artists benefiting from it? 

52:00 - No bridge over troubled waters. Chip’s old pal Bill Clinton invited Art Garfunkel to perform at Ritz-Carlton in Amelia Island and Bill sent Chip to pick Art up from the airport and get him high up on the roof of the Ritz-Carlton to hang out with the snipers. That's all they were doing up there. 

Season 2 of Floridation discusses art and culture in Northeast Florida with a different artist or culture maker each episode.

Young Buck Coffee locally roasts coffee fresh every week and delivers it to your door. Order today at youngbuckcoffee.com 

For more check out The Floridation Papers at Floridation.substack.com. Thanks for putting a little a Florida in you. Y'all come back now, hear?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

You and I talked once upon a time about like you drove a car that Art Garfunkel was in to take him to a president or something.

SPEAKER_05 0:18

I did say that should have been question one.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Tell me a little bit about what the fuck that was.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Yeah, I was I was working at an event. It was gonna be Clinton Angor at the Ritz up in Amelia Island. And so I Clinton recognized me from when I was, you know, detail or whatever, because he was he was super cool with everybody and he's he got a great memory. And so did Bob Graham. Super memory.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

To be clear here, yeah. You knew Bill Clinton.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I mean, yeah, okay. A little bit, you know?

SPEAKER_03 0:51

And were you on the island?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

I was I was no no but it was like I was always starstruck.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Thank you so much for joining us here today, Chip Southworth. Welcome to Floridation.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Thank you. Honored to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

We're so glad to have you. And it's cool that we're like right in court. You have a studio here, right? So we're like right in your neighborhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Absolutely. I'm not in this building. Yeah, about so you're in the fancy part.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

We're in the like the dregs over here.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah, they're like, oh, north? I forgot that existed. Where where in Draxville did you grow up?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Um, so I grew up kind of in the Mandarin area. Not really, it's like Bay Meadows Road, Beauclair. Beauclair, that's the area.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Gotcha. I grew up in Beauclair. And I lived in what used to be the Gloucester apartments. Okay. And uh it was an apartment complex full of kids. I mean, I hung out with like kids that were 10 years older than me, you know, pretty much like right out of the gate. Yeah, you know, I was like going to you know, BMX races and stuff like that. As soon as I learned how to ride a bike and go with these older dudes, and they would take me surfing and all, you know, and then you know, that kind of led to the whole skateboarding. Yeah, I was just gonna ask you like so.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

I should also let everyone know Ricky Southworth is also in the building with us, and y'all owned a little skate park in Mandarin, didn't you? Or it was actually a pretty big building. Yeah, yeah. It was cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

It was like uh it was like the first indoor skate park ever built with a flat bottom. Okay, you know, and uh now it's pretty standard stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

What does that mean with a flat bottom?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So instead of having like a cement floor and then you have a ramp with like a metal plate that you like hit before you go up the ramp, okay, you know, we just made everything with smooth transitions and built all the way across the floor. Cool. So it felt like you're in like a cement pool or something, you know, like all the time, you know, kind of flowing from object to object. Oh right. What was it called? Did you already say the skateboard house? Okay, yeah. We weren't in business that long, but but I mean, we probably met every skateboarder in town. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, and I grew up skateboarding, you know, and so I mean, like going back to like when I was nine years old, I mean, I like I lived at Kona Skate Park, you know.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

And so and they're still around, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. It is, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

They moved it underneath the uh bridge over in uh side points.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

You've seen that little we tried we tried to get that done in San Marco back in uh 2001. Oh, really? Yeah, similar setup, yeah. And the we were working with Reggie Fullwood, who was on the council at that time, who's a good friend of mine, and the DOT just kept throwing up issues about drainage, you know, and this and that and the other, and just weird permitting. Yeah, just you know, they were just fighting it, you know, and then as it just got more, you know, normalized over the years, you know, that you know, Peterson and those guys were able to make it happen.

SPEAKER_04 4:19

Yeah, I mentioned to you that I saw your TED talk, you know, it's been several years, but you mentioned, I think, the city council then. Are you you're a bit of like a local political activist?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Or can I ask you first? Like, sure is it cool if we talk about KHG? Like, is the key thing to do? Yeah, no, we can talk about the table.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I don't care, you know.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

Yeah, because you just mentioned the city council in there, and you were trying to get the get the message to the audience, like you guys need to get active and you know, promote art and all that stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

But so have they done that yet?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah, well, I mean, you know, that's probably one of the things I'm most proud of, like accomplishments-wise, in my lifetime, you know, is like getting that passed and tell me about that.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

What so I know that like there's still an article when you Google your name that's all like calls you like a graffiti person that defaced these electrical boxes. Tell us like what how how did this come about and like what did it yeah?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

I mean, like, we've never really I've never really like publicly talked about like you know the behind the scenes kind of stuff, but I I had been talking to the guys at the cultural council and saying, look, you know, let's get you know a bill passed, you know, so we can like put art on these boxes and stuff, you know, and and it was just like you know, it's just like one more you know thing on a list of you know of shit that isn't gonna get done, you know. Was it kind of like the skate park thing where you felt like they were just pulling up any little permit issue or you know, it was just well, you know, there was just no art allowed in Jacksonville, you know, there was no street art allowed in Jacksonville, essentially, you know, and there was only one legal mural in Jacksonville at the time, and on the side of the burrito gallery, you know, and I remember that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

And what about Draper's Jaguar thing on the Calfoot?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, yeah. Well, that was that was years ago. They got that done. That was a special permit. The city fought them tooth and nail over it. I mean, like, just so ridiculous, you know. Jacksonville, and then it was like the first chance they got, they covered it, you know. It was like such a bummer. It's like, why would you cover that huge great piece? I mean, you can see it from the interstate, or you know, like coming into town, it was awesome. It's how crazy they fought that. Yeah, but sorry, I didn't mean it. No, no, I mean it was it was you know, I was actually doing you know, like some billboard lobbying type stuff at the time that that was going on, and you know, they were they were like just the anti-billboard people in town, yeah. Who I who are the same people as the anti-mural people and everything else, you know. They were just like oh, incensed by that mural, yeah. They would just like bring it up constantly, you know? Yeah, and I was just like, I love it, you know, and I would just, you know, I would just every chance I got I would, you know, talk about it and tout it.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

But they were just, you know, I could tell that they were just so I maybe it was during one spark, so maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit here. But I remember that there was a bank downtown that you did one of your what's the what's the young lady that you do the portraits of in front of the American flag, the African-American Ari. And I remember seeing one like larger than life on a bank downtown. What was was that around this same time?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Or that was right after I got arrested. Okay. So literally the day that I got out, that deal was cut for that. Oh wow. Yeah, so it was like, you know, that and the a big piece for the symphony that's in the okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

So I think I fucked up the timeline a little bit. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

That's okay, we can go back. I mean, you know, it's like so. We were talking about, you know, like let's, you know, push this, you know, and Tony was like Tony Allegretti. Yeah, and he was like, you know, sometimes it's just better to make things happen and apologize for them later, you know. And he's like, a lot of things just happen in Jacksonville that way, and I'm like, yeah, that's true. So so I had I'd really been studying Keith a lot, you know, Keith Herring and just loving the fact, like in his diaries, he talks about how he had created like a hieroglyphic system, you know, basically, you know. And and I think that he expected it to be used, you know, in ways like as a language. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like a like an art language, you know. And so, you know, I I started doing it was you know, about the time of Trayvon and Jordan Davis's killings, and so I had started doing Trayvon pieces all over town, you know, they were just uh like these angels with a hoodie on. Yeah. And I did, you know, Paul Figura had passed. I did a camera with wings, you know, on his business, and you know, just some stuff around town, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

I think I've seen that one. Tell me if I'm fucking up the timeline again. But at one point in in the midst of all this Keith Herring's ghost stuff, uh-huh, you and I went to Miami for Art Basel.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

And you did a piece, a Fox News themed Keith Herring's Ghost piece.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Where where was that in in the timeline of this?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

That was that was at NOMO. Um so it was right right before I was arrested. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

So this is the middle of the Keith Herring's Ghost work.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, it is right. It's it's right at the crescendo of everything kind of shit hitting the fan stage.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

So is your whole life dividing divided in between before arrests? Before and after arrests?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah, kinda. I mean, honestly, you know. Yeah. It I had we had been living down in St. Augustine, you know, up, you know, at our place, and then we'd moved into Jacksonville, and all this was happening, and I was like, you know, trying to get more involved, and you know, and so we were like, you know, maybe push it, push it a little bit more, you know. So so I did big piece on the side of the library of Arifa that was killed down in Miami. Some police tased him to death. He was trying to skate away from painting. I don't remember that one. And and so I just kept putting them up, you know. I was kind of putting them up everywhere, you know. I was, you know, if normally if it was at a business, and norm normally, you know, it'd be like a business that we're cool with, you know, a bar or a nightclub or something. There were at the time there were a bunch of bunch of bars down on Bay Street that were really hopping. That they all had good music scenes, a lot of us were hanging out at them. And so I did, you know, like a bunch of their windows, you know, and some in their hallways and stuff like that. And and you know, they were just kind of adding up, you know, and but but I did do, you know, quite a few on city property and stuff too. And I and I and I kind of picked ones that had like the highest traffic, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

One you mentioned that had like half a million a month or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah, yeah. And and you know, so like that city councilman that lived in that district that was right around lived right around the corner, he's the he's the one who like pulled the trigger and had me arrested.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

So he like took it as his personal like mission to like get you.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, I mean, yeah, basically, he was like they were saying some crazy stuff. Like, like I had an uncle, like a distant uncle in the family who's like, Chip, you know, the uh police came to the house today and they're saying that you're painting people having sex on city property and stuff, and I'm like, I'm like, what? You know, and it's just like I'm like, I assure you, that's not what's happening, you know. I'm like, dude, it's just so innocuous, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I said it's just two people hugging, you know. Yeah. And so, you know, anyway, I was like, they're called like they're on to me.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

It's funny because you said that one city council member probably thought that was lowering his property value or whatever. He just didn't like it. But well, you I can't remember how you said it in the TED talk, and I won't keep talking about the TED talk, but you said I actually like graffiti, street art, murals, it actually like raises your I don't know what the what the word you were using, but it makes your your city more beautiful, it makes it more memorable, yeah, more vibrant, you know, and it's like makes people want to move to those areas, you know. And in their minds, it it makes it trashier. The council people might and and just as okay, boomer.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

I mean, you know, I guess. I mean, you know, who knows, you know. I mean, maybe they just saw it as political or or whatever against politics, you know.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

So then you get arrested.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah. So then uh the TED Talk people come to me, you know, just you know, and I agree to do a TED talk, and then Tony's like, are you uh are you gonna talk good about the Cultural Council and everything? I'm like, No. What have they done for me lately? Can you mention to me that's it? And he's like, Well, you know, what how can we change it? I said, Look, if we can get a bill passed, or at least like through committee, you know, by the time that TED Talk happens, I'll, you know, I'll put in a good word and everything, you know. And and he's like, okay, so the very next morning the mayor's office calls me at like, you know, eight o'clock, and we're like, let's go meet at brew.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

And who's the mayor at this time? Alton Brown? Oh, it's Peyton? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And yeah, so we meet, we look at like 60 laws or whatever. Yeah. And there was a bunch of other shit that happened, you know, like where we had kind of proved, we got like people at JEA to prove that this wasn't, you know, hurting anything, you know, the whole nine yards. It's not ruining the electrical boxes, right? Right, right. And uh, and so like all that kind of that stuff kind of happened in the background also at the same time. Yeah, you know, so you're kind of doing due diligence, yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And so we we find these these 60 laws, kind of go through, mark them up, and put together a bill, and it goes through council. And during that time, we were showing up with, you know, like over a hundred people from the art community, you know, to city council meetings, you know, and so was Tony Allegredi like the chair of the cultural council?

SPEAKER_04 15:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah, yeah. He was yeah, he was the head of the cultural council, and Christy Holicek was the head of art and public places at the time.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

And you know, and you know, looking back, they both did exceptional jobs. I you know, I'll give them credit for that. You know, I've I've talked some shit here and there about them, there's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

You know, well you were in a emotional situation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

You know, it was just it was in a it was in a situation, you know, and but you know, seeing what's happened since then and everything, you know, and you know, you know, I think they both know that I that I I secretly love them both sides.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Yeah, but you also took it from I do want to get us into like there was a story that you told me one time that like just still sort of blows my mind is the day that you got arrested. So like tell us how this unfolded.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Um so I was staying at my studio because we had gotten word that they wouldn't come into the studios.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Here at Cork because it's like a different it's a weird environment.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

They can't get a warrant specific or it was just it was a little more way more difficult for them. And so I was staying here and I was uh I was like, man, I really want my back's hurting one night. I really want to go home and just yeah, you don't have a good bed in that studio. No, and it was my old studio, so it was like half the size of my current studio, right? And I didn't have couches and stuff in there until you know, until I moved into the bigger one. And so I go home and I park like two streets over.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

So you're doing like spy level parking, like I'm gonna be out of sight. I'm trying to like, you know, yeah, there's no cameras, can't see my car.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Right. I totally park in a weird spot, like two blocks away, wearing a ghillie suit, walking backwards, in just everything in like a uh a business parking lot off of San Marco, basically. A walk in through the back of my house. So like I jump a fence and my my backyard neighbor's fence and I jump in the.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Mickey's looking at the front window with binoculars infrared.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And I mean, honestly, I really wasn't thinking that anything was gonna happen, you know. Yeah, you're just being precautious, yeah, yeah. You know, and um I was crashing out, watching some TV, you know, fall asleep on my super comfortable sofa, and here's bow, you know, super loud banging, you know. I'm like, god damn it. Sit up and I like I just kind of look out the window. I have these big metal blinds.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

This is your place in San Marco, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

He's like I know the sound of that.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

He's like, fucking Ian ratted me out again, man.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So uh I look out the window and I'm like, all I see are cop cars as far as I could see it in either direction. I was like shit.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

So you're a violent criminal, they gotta bring you your SWAT team in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Well, I was I was like, Well, that's right, you are a veteran, aren't you? Okay, but good to go yeah, different story. But anyway, I went and I knocked on my son's door, and I'm like, hey, go open the front door. When you open the front door, I'm gonna open the back door and go out the back, you know, and try to get to my car. And so he opened the door, I open the door, and I dart out the back door, and I'm just wearing like boxers and some bands, you know. And I look up and there's like I see in my neighbors' yards, there's like cops in all of my neighbors' yards, you know. I look into I had like an apartment behind my house that was we got him, the leader of Antifa. There was somebody already in my apartment, and like my backyard was just solid, solid wall. You never had a chance.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

That was a thick blue line.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

It was crazy, and I was just like, ah, you know, they all had these big pictures of me. It was so funny, like uh eight by ten pictures. One of them had they took driver's license photos.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Oh, they're holding pictures of you.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Some of them had his that's him. Look, some of them had his portfolio too, just to get an idea of who he was as an artist, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Hold on, guys. I want to read you some some of those artist statements.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

He's exploring ideas, guys. Some common themes are social justice. Hey, while we're at a little bit of a break, I just want to make sure that's recording.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

We do this every time.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Well, the the thing is I try to turn the screen on and I hit the space button. And I don't know if that turns off your you need to unlock it so it's always, you know, so I can get to it.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Are we gonna have to do all that shit over again? No, it's recording.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

But when the screen locks, I mean I'm like, well, I hope it's recording. I hope whatever I just touched didn't stop it.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

I appreciate your concern because it would suck if we didn't get in.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Definitely. I only do it after I say something funny, though. I'm like, oh, I hope that recorded.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

It better have got my line.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

All right, so you got the thick blue line. Do they taste you?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Did they no, no, they just grabbed me and they they threw me in a car and then did you have any What did they say to you in the police car on the rideover?

SPEAKER_04 21:34

And what did you say as they were tackling you, though?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

So the guy that theyan knew.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Oh, that cop was part of the operation.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was like the head of it. And so he was part of that graffiti abatement squad, and I talked about them on MPR, and NPR like ran it nationally. Graffiti abatement squad. And the police were you know pissed. They were pissed, yeah. And like they they had uh they had leaked my arrest reports out and stuff too, thinking it was gonna like make me look stupid. It was just it was just like the exclamation point on the whole thing. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

And so then you are taken to jail.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

You're processed downtown, putting it.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

They take me to like substation first and want me to write a statement and everything, you know, which you know, I just write a statement basically about So wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

This is like some law and order shit? Like you have to sit down in a room and they give you a pen and a pad, and they're like, write down your confession kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Yeah, yeah. They were like, if you'll Make a confession. We won't take your computers.

unknown 22:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

They were going to take my computer. Okay, so the threat there is that they're going to delete and everything. They took my phone. They wanted like clothes that I'd worn in interviews and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Like evidence that this was your clothes kind of thing.

unknown 23:11

He was masked.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Right, right, right. But you they wanted the clothing that I was wearing, like the jacket. It wasn't the mask, too. They wanted the bandanas and all that. It's funny. I still have all that. They're like Levi's bandanas. I have them in like evidence bags, you know. I just left them in there. All the art that they took, we got back, and it they were all in evidence bags also.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

And I don't probably make custom evidence bags for your art.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

It's funny. I I donated on so I donated them to Jasmine, and Ken Stutz framed them all up and stuff, and he he framed them where you could see like a little bit of evidence tag and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

That's really cool. I'll about say did that change?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Oh, it did. Yeah, they showed it at the TED Talk thing, and then it just went over to Jasmine. And they were gonna sell them for like fundraising, but somebody bought them and just donated them to Jasmine anyway. That's really cool, man. It turned out pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Since this event, you've had a hard time like just finding regular commercial work because this has been sort of like an issue with yeah, I've applied for 34 jobs at the PGA tour that I was like super qualified for.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

And you know, I just wanted, you know, they were art type jobs, you know, but and creative type, you know, director jobs. And you're an avid golfer, like you understand the sport, you know, and it's like, you know, it started when they came out with like a comedy type podcast and a social media channel.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Was it like where they had like a guy put like shoes on his knees?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

No, your your artwork is not compatible with Dorf. So yeah, definitely not. The new the PGA Tour is gonna bring Dorf back. I know. Could you would you consider doing a series of Dwarf paintings?

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Right. I told the PJ Tour what they should do is have an outcast reunion.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

How did this affect your so PGA Tour? You couldn't get these jobs, and like generally you feel like it's been this weird blocker. How did you find out that this was the blocker, or could you just tell?

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Like you just kind of well, I mean, I have a friend that works there, that worked there for 25 years who was you know okay, and he's like, I'm I'm telling you, dude, it's like they get to this Keith Herang's ghost shit, and they're just like, Nope.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

That's so interesting to me though. And the reason that's so interesting to me is because like I think that if anyone in the whole outside world for all of time and space and history looks back on like who was Chip Southworth, they're gonna be like amazed by the Keith Herring's ghost story. Like, I almost feel like you should be doubling down on talking about it all the time. You know what I mean? Like, I think that like it is it is you being an edgelord.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Yeah, you know, it's it was it was a chapter, you know, yeah, or or a book or whatever, you know. It was a good one. I just feel yeah, it was really good.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

It was like a really good, like, how do we start a revolution? Like, that's one of the ways.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, I mean, we changed 18 laws with one bill. Yes, let's get in. We ended up passing unanimously. I I went and met with every city council person individually.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

This is after the arrest, yeah. And then now city council people are willing to meet with you, they're not scared of you.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

They didn't think that you had a gun or that you proposed you posed some sort of they didn't insist on having police around.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

No, no, they're all they're all cool.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

They patted them down at least, though.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

But I mean, I met with all but two, you know, and then but I met with like their staffers or whatever, but you know, and I think everybody was ready, you know, and it's like Jacksonville's ready for this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

So this catalyst, everyone saw it as like a necessary evil, or it felt like at that point.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Yeah, I think so. You know, it was like I think people like knew that this was like an anti-art, anti-visual, you know, kind of I mean, these guys aren't worried about Keith Herring. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

You know, it's just they don't even know who that is, probably.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Probably you know, it's funny, like that's who they were looking for for nine months.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

Like, who's this Keith Herring? Oh, he's he's dead to no avail.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

People like I mean, different people here at Cork would always be like, you know, like uh, hey, uh the police were looking for Keith Herring today.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

Do you know what Keith have you seen Keith Herring around? And you said that after those bills passed or whatever, I don't know politics, but they started paying people to paint those traffic switch boxes, whatever they are, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

So the very thing that you got kind of hosed on that can't be.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah, they the first well, they I mean most of the ones that they've done, and they haven't most of the ones that they've done, they haven't done a lot of them. But uh mostly mostly what it did was it made walls accessible, you know. It if you have permission from the landowner, you can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

So it went from like a hard anti-graffiti stance to like, well, if the owners are into it and it's artful and it doesn't have like people fucking each other or yeah, it just had to be permissible, you know, yeah, and basically not obscene, you know, and it's not supposed to advertise anything, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So, you know, it's you know, it's just you know, just some simple stuff like that, you know. But but arguably that's scale and everything. I mean, like you could put a 30-story one on the side of the CSX building, you know, for a hundred thousand.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

I mean, on over on Crowley's property, there is a there is one that's tall as that is that where that is, yeah. Yes, like when you're coming across the water.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

The towers, yeah, yeah, yeah. Silas. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's an awesome. I wish that piece was on the other side, like the Matthews Bridge side.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

So the Arlington people could see it.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

You know, yeah. I mean, it's just you know, because that's like I mean, the hard bridge is like, you're like, fuck those hard bridges. So many more people use you know, Matthews Bridge. Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

I just don't have that data. We gotta put the I'll provide it. Okay, so that is a great story. I'm so glad that we talked about it. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

Don't forget, just so we could keep this perfect timeline going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

What was the Dazzle camo? What was the thing you wrote? Oh, yeah, yeah. Here's the question how I wrote it. What the fuck is Dazzle Camo?

unknown 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Answer the question, stop evading that.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, no, it's it's it's a good question. Dazzle Camo. It's it's naval camouflage from uh World War I, World War II era, it started World War I, got really we had by World War II we had like 1200 ships painted, and so they painted the whole ships in this dazzle.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

So, well, there's there's hundreds of patterns actually, but the ones that people are most familiar with are like the the line work pieces, and and people think of them as black and white, they weren't always black and white, but the photography at that time was black and white, so so it kind of looks black and white. And so when people replicate it, most times, you know, these days they do it in black and white and stuff like that. I had been, you know, when I was in the Navy, there was Sun Clinton was present when I was in I was a guard member, and there on Sundays he didn't do a lot, you know. So yeah, so we could work at the Naval Museum for some extra bucks, you know, and and I would always jump on that ability, and you know, and I would just be in there, and nobody would come in all day long, you know. Right, like two people, you know, on a Sunday, you know, and it was it was I would just walk around and look at everything, you know, and uh you'd be like quite a few models.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

There's a boat.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, I love the ones that were painted with dazzle camo, yeah, you know, and basically the premise is when uh a German U-boat shoots shoots at a at a at a ship, you know, they look out a out through a periscope and it's like splashing water, you know. Think you know, think of you know 1930s, 1940s, right? Yeah, active ocean. You're looking through this little tiny, you know, mirrored device, and you're trying to pick the bearing that this ship is on and how fast it's going. Because you have to give about a uh six-minute lead time to stay safe distance from the explosion, basically.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Plus water travel, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Right, right. That's what it is. So it's it's the traveling through the water, so they have to get the the shoot it way out ahead, and then they meet, right? So the British had drafted a an abstract expressionist painter who said, Look, I think that you could paint these ships in a way not to hide them, but to confuse the enemy, you know. And basically they said, All right, well, you know, paint one up, send it out, see if you can sink it. And they had a really hard time doing it. And so they started painting everything. And the British painted uh over like 3,000, you know, of everything. They painted everything, you know, every civilian vessel, you know, if if it floated, because that they were just sinking everything, especially, you know. Yeah, I mean, it's like that, you know, it's it's it's kind of crazy, you know. So, you know, that stuff, it looks cool, you know? Yeah, like I I really have always dug it. I I really was unsure how to work it into my art, you know, but I knew I wanted to. And so is it the concept of confuse the enemy that draws you to the well, you know the the year 2024, I like 2024, 2025, that whole section there. I was kind of getting just pushback, you know, about being too political with art, you know, showing.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

And so in this time period, you're doing this freedom forward, what's what's the name of the four freedoms? Four freedoms and the action task force. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Task force.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

This is that same time period.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

So you're you're like actually Yeah, during the Democratic Convention in Chicago, I'm in a show up there and and I get a piece pulled out of that show, you know, and I come home and Overstreet and I get kicked out of a show. And then the triennial came around and basically they were saying no political art. And I was like, And this is what what year? This is 2024, right? Wow.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Wild. So we're scared of.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

I mean, like the hammer's coming down. No, no, it's like it's the start. Well, it's DeSantis. DeSantis has just cut $1.3 million out of the art budget for the, you know, for the state. And no, not 1.3, like that was like what I think our area's cut was. It was like like a huge amount of money, like ridiculous amount of money. Everybody was on edge. Everybody. And at that time, so you know, I was like told Hank Willis Thomas, who were texting one night, and I said, you know, I'm just kind of at a loss of where to go, because it's like I keep getting kind of censored here and there and everywhere. And he said, Nick Fuentes.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

I noticed that too, in many ways, yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

And he says, you know, just you don't have to reinvent you know the wheel, you know. And so he's doing Matisse pieces with like NBA jerseys and stuff, you know, and that was like when he said that and showed me that, I was kind of like maybe the the camouflage will work like a flag, you know.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

It you saw it as an expression all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah, I was also just really on some Jasper John's stuff at the time too. And I I love his segment and painter's painting, and so I've got gotten some books and I was tell me more, I don't know about it. Oh, just Painter's Painting. It's a great, great film, and it's got like all the like early masters just like sitting down basically like this, just talking about their work.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Oh right.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

And it shows some of them actually doing it, you know, and and you know, and just you know, like studio shots and stuff like that, and it's in black and white mostly, and I love it. I think you know, I think it's really cool. It's like all the all the artists that I grew up like, you know, idolizing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

Yeah, who like who before Keith Haring?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Well, I was a big Robert Roschenberg fan. I love Franz Klein, Motherwell. I'm a big Motherwell fan. In fact, they had like a they had like a community, you know, and and it was it was it was pretty kick ass, you know, and to see how they all intertwine together and how much respect they give each other and how much many of them studied together and stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Do you look back on like historically on like collectives and groups like that and wonder like why don't why don't we have that now? Do we have that now? Can we have that now? Like could there be a distinction?

SPEAKER_01 38:42

The world's too big, you know? It's like the world's too big and I think accessible, you know? It's like the numbers just don't make sense, you know. It's like at that time they were the only ones in the world doing what they were doing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

But if there was a pocket of like 10 artists in Jacksonville that were the only ones doing a certain sort of art, could it make that same impact? Because we have access to all the media and you know what I mean? It seems possible.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, I mean, like I mean, you look at like Atlanta with hip-hop and you know I mean like it's so you're still talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

It has to go naturally it has to go possible scale.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

But yeah, I mean, like that's the thing is the the scale is so big today, you know. Yeah. That was you know, it's like not like in the Damian Hirsch, Jeff Coons type, but like the Shepherd Fairies and you know Hank Wis Thomas's and go guys like that. It's an eye-opener to you know meet those guys and show with them and and see how they're living, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Can you tell us a little bit about like so you you went and showed in California at a at an at a show that Shepard Fair? Was that a task force?

SPEAKER_01 40:16

It was uh it was a task force and four freedoms. I was brought in by four freedoms, but task force sold sold quite a few pieces of my work at the time. Yeah, I was we were headed down to Art Basil. Uh well I went up to see Marcus Kinney in Savannah, and it was during like that family weekend that they have at SCAD. Yeah, and I went over to the museum. Aaron Garvey was the director of SCAD Museum at the time, and he's like, Hey, you need to come sit and listen to uh Hank Willis Thomas's talk, you know. I was like, Oh yeah, I would definitely want to do that. So and Hank Will, who who's this? Hank Willis Thomas, he is possible, I mean, like one of the greatest visual artists alive right now. Um, he's killing it in every way. He did the big embrace statue, he did uh Love of Rules. No, but like his mother is a photographer, and she's she's I'd say she's one of the most famous black photographers ever. And she's also written like I mean, uh an immeasurable amount of books on on black photography. Okay, and so Hank grew up in that that kind of you know environment on the back of his last book. It's there's a quote that says, When I want to be inspired, I look at Hank's work, and it was Alicia Key's.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

You know, and I mean, like, I mean, the dude is the sweetest human on earth, you know. He's so I went in, I listened to his talk, and I just, you know, I'm just listening, you know, and I'm but uh but I was sitting with Aaron, and as we walk out, Aaron introduces me to him, you know, and I didn't think much of it, you know. After you know, I mean I was just stoked to have met him, and a couple days later he hits me on, likes me on Instagram, follows me, and I was like, oh man, that's awesome, you know. And uh he posts a couple of pictures, you know, in his feed here and there and stuff. And we're going to Art Basil, and I get an email from him, you know, or I get an email from Michelle Wu, who's one of his collaborators at Four Freedom is one of the one of the main and she said, Hey, Hank, wanted me to contact you, and we want you to be part of this show, you know. Here's an article about it, you know, and so so that was how it all started, you know. And so I was like, you know, just because of the nature of my work, I'd like Hank to kind of pick, if he's into it, you know, like what goes to California, you know, and so so he picked the you know the pieces that were in the the lift show, and yeah, you know, so the the portraits of you know Tamir, Jordan, and Trayvon, and then uh the white guilty piece, and then the the piece that's called the reason, you know, and so those all went, and then there was a couple of small pieces that I just stuck into the to the thing, you know, and like they put in the gift shop and stuff like that, and uh they were able to you know like move like prints and yeah, and some small pieces and stuff, and I while I was out there, I I did a bunch of street art too, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

And then in LA, where where did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Uh just a bunch of boxes and doors and stuff like that. Like downtown or like yeah, I'd taken a bunch of like it was it was it wasn't downtown, but it was like right outside of downtown arts district, or there's lots of warehouses and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 44:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And trapped in errant Waymo.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Yeah, you know, so it's like it's it's in like a weird kind of wedge shaped area and backed up to some of those like big reservoirs and stuff. Yeah, so it was yeah, the watch really and so I had just uh when I packed up, you know, at the time Mark George still worked at Giglio and Giglio is still like, you know, and so Coop and and Mark made me a bunch of stuff take out there, you know, and I was just like just you know putting it up everywhere. Yeah. And you know, so I had a good time. Then they had me back out for the very like very next big kind of show that they had out there. Task Force had gotten like a big state sponsored show, and so I shipped art more artwork out there, and then they did they had like these.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Didn't Shepherd Ferry give you like a shout-out or something?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah, yeah. He did like like a whole interview, like right in front of my pieces and everything. Oh right. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was on the the front of Huffington art. It was pretty soon. Excellent. And and so, you know, I like you know, I hung out with him quite a bit, you know, like the black-eyed piece performed, you know, at this show Chuck D. But you know, it was like every night was like this crazy, like some of crazy event, you know, and yeah, it was it was pretty wild.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

I didn't know you were so hip-hop. I didn't dude. He and I hung out with Slick Rick once, really, dude.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah, I love hip hop.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Yeah, that that is actually my last question that I had written down. How do we start a revolution? Quickly. Yeah, we we have 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

I'm looking right, right. I know. I mean, you know, I've I'm looking for it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

I mean, isn't the job of the artist to make revolution impossible to resist?

SPEAKER_01 46:23

You know, it's my my favorite quote of all time is that paintings aren't meant to decorate apartments, they're instruments of war against you know the authority. And and I I I've always believed that, you know, I I think that artists do have a responsibility to to fight for the more ethereal things, you know. And you know, there's there's artists on both sides, you know, but you know, it's there it's it's very heavy on our side.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Let me ask you this about like the idea of like kind of combat and art, you know? From what we've talked about so far, the people that were against the ideas of you uh painting on electrical boxes, and then that ended up starting a cause, like creating a conversation, and then that conversation inevitably led to we should let this happen. So you had to get arrested. But then from the outcome of that ultimately was we should actually this should be fine. Yeah, we shouldn't have to arrest people for this.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

I mean, it it I don't know why, but it was like front page story above even a terrorist attack, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:54

You know, it was like Jacksonville, and then afterward, everyone was kind of like yeah, right? Like everyone was like, No, we actually this should be fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Yeah, I mean it passed and then it came, you know, and then the the art republic people started holding, you know, those like mural festivals. Okay, yeah. So that's how so much art got done so fast, is you know, they were kind of captured.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Which I remember that like you you weren't exactly excited that that's how it went.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah, in the moment you were like there should be more local artists being definitely that well, more local, more women, yeah, more people of color, you know.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

It was just basically, you know, it was already proven success commercially, kind of people that were being asked.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah, that they were basically they were getting them to, you know, hey, stop into Jacksonville before you head down to Miami, and we'll put you up and pay your expenses and we'll fly you in, and you know, blah blah blah blah blah. And then they would give them the give them, you know, what kind of like what was left in their budget, you know. But then they would go to a Jacksonville artist and just give them that little chunk, right? Like none of it.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

That's the most I'd ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah, you know, well, it was you know, it was like they was it was ridiculously small amounts, you know.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

And but it was something, yeah. Jacksonville artists is like, you're gonna pay me?

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah, no, it was it was good, you know, and but they weren't like, you know, say like if they if the total budget to bring artists A, B, and C to town, right, was an average of twelve thousand dollars, and they were only getting two thousand five hundred or something like that of that budget for the artwork, right? The rest of it went to cars and you know, yeah, yeah, but you know, bring, you know, flying them in and hotel rooms for them to crew and stuff like that, you know. And and they would also pay for some local people to help them out, you know? Yeah, and so that then they would go to a local artist and say, here's just two thousand five hundred dollars, you know, and then they usually had to fight for that, you know, and you know, and wait and fight and wait, you know. Yeah. So it was it was kind of it was kind of bullshit, you know. And I think it would have been much better if it was if it happened more organically, or if the city had kind of you know taken that by the reins and done done kind of the same thing, but you know, parsed the budgets out better, you know.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

Did it feel like it was a cool guys club at some point and not really about like the community's voice, or well, I mean, I if it was not really.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

I mean, it was just like this this group of people's club, and they were attracting like this party crowd from like the beaches and stuff, and and they were getting people from other cities to come to to this, you know, to little events that they would have, but but it just didn't feel like it was like a big Jacksonville happening, you know. Like, I mean it wasn't like a you know, like a one spark or anything like that, right?

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Or it felt like somebody from outside came in and curated some stuff and then left.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah, like like it was like a show, you know, like a show comes to town and they they perform, they do their shit, they get out, you know, and it was that that's kind of the way it felt, you know, until the next time. And I and you know, I just had some some vo uh you know, some voice at the time, you know, and I was just like, you know, I think you guys ought to have more females and people of color and you know, more locals, you know, and yeah, I think it's ridiculous that you know that this many murals went up and you know, in these key spots without giving people from Jacksonville a shake at it. And unfortunately, the art in public places and over and over and over again, everybody thinks the grass is always greener on the other side, you know. So when they put out a call for art, they make it like national calls, you know. I was like eager to get out there and do some stuff, and I had worked for you know the president in the Navy.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Can I ask you really quick about this? Yeah, like I know we're way over time. We were supposed to ask about some of his yeah, like I'm interested. Like you and I talked once upon a time about like you drove a car that Art Garfunkel was in to take him to a president or something.

SPEAKER_05 52:51

I did say that should have been questioned one.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Tell me a little bit about what the fuck that was.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Yeah, I was I was working at an event, it was gonna be Clinton and Gore at the Ritz up in Amelia Island, and so I Clinton recognized me from when I was, you know, detail or whatever, because he was he was super cool with everybody and he's got a great memory, and so did Bob Graham. Super memory.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

To be clear here, yeah. You knew Bill Clinton.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

I mean, yeah, okay, a little bit, you know?

SPEAKER_03 53:24

And were you on the island?

SPEAKER_01 53:26

I was I was no, but it was like I was always now he's I think he's uh wow, starstruck person. Like I would say that everybody that that dude met thought that they were his best friend.

SPEAKER_04 53:41

But he's that's is that a politician or is he just not a great memory power?

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Like the way he handles people, the way he like grabs your hand and your arm and your shoulder and you and yeah, I mean he's just like he's like you know flirting with you the entire time, basically, you know, and you know what I think, and you're like, yes, example.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

He daps you up, like I'm Lewinsky, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

So so he's like send chip to go get art, you know, and I was like, I'm toe down, you know. So uh I go to the Jacksonville airport and I see him, I'm like, hey, I'm here to pick you up, you know. And he's like, all right, so we get in, and we're like driving back, and I'm like just making some dumb small talk and not really digging it, you know. And I'm like, uh and I'm like, your wife and kid are in your room, you know. He's like, what? He's like, man, I'm not supposed to see my wife and kid until after I perform. I'm like, oh shit, well, we'll get that taken care of, you know.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

Whoa, that's very specific.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Yeah, so they're allowed to go, they have like the run of the resort, and they they can go do whatever, but he doesn't want any stress before he performs. Uh and right before he performs, he wants to go up to the roof and smoke two joints.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

The roof of where?

SPEAKER_01 55:08

The the the Ritz-Carlton.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

The Ritz-Carlton where? Amelia Island. So you're in Amelia Island. Yeah, yeah, we're in Amelia Island. I forgot too. I was like, where downtown did he go? I was like, wait, you were at the airport a minute ago. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

So driving from the airport, he wouldn't step foot, Jackson. I get him his own room, and the next day he comes to me and he's like, hey, I want to clear my mind out. I'm like, that's where I get that from. And or did he get that from you? Uh okay, well, what does that mean? He's like, he's like, I want to go smoke some weed. And I'm like, oh, okay, you know, and he's and so he's like, usually the president wants me to go up to the roof, and you know, and you know, I'm like, okay, so I I get the head of the DNC at that time, and they're like, Yeah, just take him up in the service elevator or whatever. There's like a bunch of secret service snipers on the roof, you know. So we're just all standing around, you know, with all these snipers.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Yeah, the snipers are like, don't kill, don't accidentally kill our garfunkel or the dude watching him.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

I thought you were gonna say, like, Art Garfunkel likes us to light his joint with a sniper on us, though. Shoot it right on the tip. Just the tip.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

50 caliber, baby. So wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

So, you know, uh the fun the funny, the funny backstory was they kept saying, look, don't perform bridge over troubled waters. You know, it was like during the Monica Lewinsky uh scandal. So it was like a negative connotation or something? Yeah, they were like, you know, they we don't want to people.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

There's no troubled waters. Yeah, yeah. No troubled waters, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

And dude, so we get in.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

Parsley, sage, rosemary, time, fine. Yeah, it's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Like, nobody's sitting behind the president, you know? So they're like, go sit behind the president, you know. So that's all closed up. So I go sit behind him. I'm like, and so I'm just listening to him, and like Art Garfunkel comes out and he and he plays a couple songs, and Clinton goes, Art, play bridge over troubled waters. He's like, Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 57:26

I mean, he's like, We've been on this fucking tour, you gotta play it once.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

I love this idea of all of these con warring parties that like somebody's like, you no matter what, he does not play bridge over troubled waters. Why don't y'all play that bridge over troubled waters?

SPEAKER_04 57:47

We've been touring around.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

Fucking play my game.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Right. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 57:53

And so then he's like, yes, sir. Uh bridge over troubled waters. And all all of like his like pundits, the hawks, are over there, like, well, you know, it could have been auto sniper could have lit garfunkel up.

SPEAKER_04 58:09

Fucking hair everywhere. His hair would have just caught those bullets.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 58:15

That's why that's why he was the performer to protect him.